Author of the Sunday Times bestselling QueenieâCandice Carty-Williams joins a very special guest host, Roxane Gay, to talk about her latest novel People Person which follows the Pennington family, a cadre of five half-siblings forced together in the wake of a dramatic event.
Roxane Gay:
A few short years ago, Candace Carty-Williams came out with her debut novel Queenie, about a young Jamaican British woman in London trying to get her life together after a bad breakup. Itâs funny and sharp and deeply felt, and one of those books that makes you think this woman is one hell of a storyteller. Well, weâre lucky because now sheâs back with her second novel, People Person. And it is the best book Iâve read all year. The novel follows the Pennington family, five siblings really who have the same itinerant father, who has been mostly absent from their lives. When Dimple Pennington runs into something of a crisis with her boyfriend, she turns to the family she hasnât seen in years. And now as adults, the siblings reconnect and help Dimple solve the biggest problem in her life. And in doing so, they find that the bonds between them are stronger than they could have ever imagined. I am so excited to speak today with Candace about her novels, her work in publishing, and where she goes from here. Candace Carty-Williams. Welcome to Design Matters.
Candice Carty-Williams:
Roxanne Gay, thank you very much for having me.
Roxane Gay:
I am so pleased to see you again.
Candice Carty-Williams:
And me too.
Roxane Gay:
We first met need to in London with the Black Girls Book Club. Iâm curious, youâve said in a number of interviews that you came to writing late and never really thought of yourself as a writer when you were younger. And Iâm wondering what was that moment that made writing possible for you where you thought, âActually, I might be a writer and I can do this?â
Candice Carty-Williams:
Is that day coming yet? I donât know. I still may be not there, but do you know what it was? It was working in publishing and seeing so many books coming through, but none that I could relate to really. And finding that really hard and honestly writing Queenie was me being like, âLet me give it a go, let me see. I like stories, I like to tell stories, I like to hear stories. So maybe if I try one for myself, it could be something.â Writer, is still something that Iâm grappling with. I get imposter syndrome. I suffer from it badly all the time. But I think it was just me being like, âYou got something to say.â
Roxane Gay:
How do you go from, âI have something to say,â to a novel because I know that you wrote a lot of the novel at JoJo Moyesâ Country House, which sounds made up when you say it out loud. What was it about that space that opened those flood gates?
Candice Carty-Williams:
I think when I go back to sort of this imposter syndrome thing, Iâd won this place on this retreat and I borrowed my friendâs car because I didnât have a car. And I drove that, I bombed it down the motorway. And when I got there, I just knew that I had to earn my place. And I was like, âYou canât leave without having done something.â And itâs not that Jojo was ever going to come in and be like, âHow much have we done?â But I was like, âYou owe it to yourself and you owe it to being in the space to produce something from that.â
And so when I got in, I locked myself in there and I wrote maybe 8,000 words I think on the first night because I was like, âYou have to do this, You have to this because also you donât have the space otherwise.â London is a very loud, London is very busy. And Iâm one of those people that always, I really try and beat, have gratitude about being in a space that isnât mine. Or in a space thatâs kind of been given to me. And so it was just being very much like, âEarn this now.â
Roxane Gay:
What does your writing process look like when you finally sit down? And I ask that because every time I ask a writer, âHow do you do it?â Every writer has a different answer and even sometimes canât even articulate how I do it. Iâm like, âI sit down and most of the time I mess around on the internet, but then once in a while, some words show up.â So what does that look like for you?
Candice Carty-Williams:
Itâs in the middle of the night so that I canât be distracted by the internet or by people. And itâs very intense. And so I will sit and I do a shift of writing for maybe eight hours. And then I will look up and be like, âOh okay. Youâre still here, youâre still fine.â And I wonât have done anything. I might have drunk some water. And then I tend to have a cigarette at the end to punctuate the session. So I know that Iâm done, Iâm a very weird sort of purist and then I feel quite sick and I feel kind of giddy. And then I have to not do any writing again for another maybe three days, three, four days.
Roxane Gay:
Oh, interesting.
Candice Carty-Williams:
Just to recover. So Iâm good at giving myself recovery time because if I try and do it again the next day, my head will explode.
Roxane Gay:
Itâs interesting because I do try to write every day, but my best writing, and I will say all of my books were written in very compressed amounts of time. And for many, many hours a day, I wrote my first novel, An Untamed State, writing up to 10 hours a day during a summer. Because I knew this was the only unstructured time I was going to have before a new semester started. And so I just wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote. And I was just deeply within the story. And so itâs really wonderful to hear that another writer has a similar process where sometimes you just hit the ground running and Iâm a night writer as well. I need everything to be, I need the house to be quiet. I need the animals to be quiet. Yeah. I donât do well with distraction.
Candice Carty-Williams:
Oh, I do. So I need a lot of noise. I need a lot of music.
Roxane Gay:
Oh, I watch television, I will say.
Candice Carty-Williams:
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Nice. Yeah no, something in the background. Iâm really funny with quiet, so Iâm in quiet right now while I talk to you and Iâm very, Iâm like, âWhatâs that noise?â Whatâs that? Whoâs over there?â And so as soon as we finish, I brought my speaker with me on this book tour so I can have something all the time. But I love distraction because I think Iâve just got quite a jumpy fast mind and I think that feeds into it.
Roxane Gay:
What kind of music is best for you to write to?
Candice Carty-Williams:
At the moment, so itâs usually been sort of UK rap, lots of grim, but at the moment itâs soundtracks. So Romeo and Juliet soundtrack, thatâs a firm favorite. West Side Story, firm favorite. Dream Girls, another great one. And also thereâs, oh my gosh, Moulin Rouge, that one. Thatâs a very good one. So at the moment lots of film soundtracks and I love musicals. I love musicals so much. And so itâs like, âOkay, carry the energy of a musical or the camp all the loud, all the excitement and put it into the work,â if that makes sense.
Roxane Gay:
Yes. I love musicals. I love any situation where people might spontaneously break into song and dance and really make important life decisions through lyrics. Like, âYes, give me more of that.â And Dream Girls is top 10 show, so good.
Candice Carty-Williams:
Absolutely.
Roxane Gay:
Now, Queenie received such a beautiful reception and I know that one of the things that motivated you to write Queenie was reading all of these books while working in publishing and not being able to connect to many of them. Not seeing anything resembling your life on the page. And now youâve been able to give that to Black women. And so what has been your favorite moment of having a book like Queenie out in the world? And of course now People Person.
Candice Carty-Williams:
Thank you. It feels like a privilege, first of all. That is an incredible thing to me. And actually I really love being part of something that is a connector of people, thatâs super important to me. But I get so many people who just tell me that Queenie made them feel less lonely. And thatâs the thing thatâs the most important to me because I wrote it because I was feeling so lonely. And when I say that I really had something to say, I just felt so sad always in myself in trying to be this girl, this Black girl who was perfect, who had her shit together. Who was really smart, who was really good at doing her hair, who had the right skin tone, who had the right nails, who had all of this stuff, and who dated properly and behaved properly.
And I was like, âI canât be alone in always feeling this.â And so whenever I meet somebody who is like, âIâm the kind of girl that Queenie is,â Iâm always like, âOkay, good.â Because sheâs found her people. And thatâs important, thatâs me. And also when men read it is always really interesting to me and what their take homes are. But itâs always when women are like, âYeah, I recognize her.â
Roxane Gay:
Absolutely.
Candice Carty-Williams:
And not just her, but sometimes her mom. I like that connection.
Roxane Gay:
With Queenie, when I read it, I was like, âOh, I love that. It was a story about a young Black woman who didnât have it all together. Who was absolutely a mess, who was dealing with anxiety and needing to work on mental health.â And then also just having a sort of precarious living situation, which so many of us have in our twenties and thirties. So I love that you put that book into the world. Iâm curious, how do you measure success as a writer? How do you feel like, âYes, Iâve done good and Iâve made it?â Or do you feel successful?
Candice Carty-Williams:
Do I feel successful? Itâs interesting. I donât know what the measure is. Iâm not interested really in money as a metric. Iâm not really interested in social media following as a metric. I just like to, if anyone goes on social media, I just sort of post some stuff very irregularly. And my stories are just me doing stupid shit. I donât have a curated brand. Iâm not really interested in being that sort of person.
I think itâs knowing that someone has connected to my work, which takes back to what weâre talking about before. But thatâs the thing for me that makes me feel like Iâm important and feel like I can talk to someone. Because so much of my life, just as a person is always trying to find a way to connect with people. And I think having two books now where people can come and say to me, âAh, youâve captured what I have gone through and I didnât know who to talk to about, I didnât even know I needed to talk to about it.â Thatâs how I measure what success is to me. Itâs having found a connection.
Roxane Gay:
Those connections can be so important. I read a piece in The Guardian, and you talked about how Queenie was written about Blackness and response to whiteness, but your second book was a book just about Black people. How have people responded to that difference in focus? And what are you really proud of in People Person and how you grew as a writer between Queenie and People Person?
Candice Carty-Williams:
Thank you. Iâve been waiting for someone to ask that. Iâve had a very interesting response to that, which I recognized quite early on. So I had lots of reviewers and all white ones actually say, itâs not Queenie. And itâs like, âWell yes. Well, of course not, itâs a different work.â
Roxane Gay:
Funny how that works.
Candice Carty-Williams:
Yeah, interesting. And so I think that there is something interesting that Iâm finding and when I see plays and when I watch films. There is something about whiteness that is still, whiteness has to be centered even if itâs negatively because itâs at least you still recognize that Iâm here. And so the lack of that in People Person I think has really flummoxed people. If thereâs not even a lens being held up to me, then whatâs the point? And I found that really interesting. So lots of people who were like, âWell, where are the white people?â And I had a journalist, a white journalist, ask me why I had othered the white people in the novel, in People Person. And I was like, âIn what way do you mean?â
And she was like, âWell, theyâre just the other.â And I was like, âI honestly donât know what you mean.â I was like, âIâm not being rude, I just donât know what that is.â And she was like, âWell, the woman in it, sheâs described as a white woman.â And I was like, âWell, how would you describe yourself?â And sheâs like, âWell, a woman.â And I was like, âWell, thatâs the issue.â And so itâs that interesting thing of being like, âUnless Iâm writing about whiteness in a way that even is negative, positive, anything.â Unless Iâm signpost whiteness is something that is there that is disruptive, then no one really understands what Iâm doing. And thatâs really interesting.
Roxane Gay:
That is interesting. And itâs always revealing when you press white journalists and readers about their inherent biases about who is the center of a narrative universe. Because it reveals time and time again that what theyâre really saying is that white people are the center of the universe. So Iâm a woman, but you are a Black woman. You womanhood is qualified by your race. How do you have the, I donât know what the word is, itâs not courage, but how do you hold that line with journalists and actually ask the questions? Or push back on the question so that they have to confront that sort of bias that they would normally be allowed to skate away with?
Candice Carty-Williams:
I think I try not to do this whole like, âIâm teaching people things.â Because Iâm not necessarily interested in that as a sort of function of survival and living. But I definitely think you need to be asked this question and I think Iâm going to ask it in a much nicer way than someone else is going to. And so itâs just being patient. And Iâve never been rude to a journalist, so I have had a lot of reason to be. But Iâve never, not because Iâm afraid of Iâm, I just donât like being rude to people. I donât think itâs very nice. But in this, itâs like, âYeah, I just want you to have a think about what that is and in a space that is safe and in a space that Iâm interested.â And I am interested, typically itâs not me being like, âOh, Iâve caught you out.â Itâs me being like, âHow did we get here? And how did you get here? And how did you feel that this was appropriate to ask me or talk to me about.â
Roxane Gay:
Thatâs such a good question of how did you get here? And Iâm also interested in the question of where do you go from here with this new information or new perspective? And as journalism goes, itâs rare that we get to follow up with journalists who are interviewing us. But I often think, where are you going to go from here? Is this just going to be an awkward blip on your radar or is this going to be a moment where you have actually learned something.
In People Person, one of my favorite things is that there really werenât any white people. And it was refreshing and I didnât realize it until I got to the end and I realized, âWow, this was just about Black people in a Black community.â And even one of the siblings has a white parent. And even then we barely see her. She only pops up at the end when everyone comes together for something. I would love to know the origin story of People Person, because I loved this book so much, I just loved it. And I rarely say that about a book because there are a lot of okay books. But this was just so warm and so wonderful and the siblings⌠Tell me about the origin story of People Person.
Candice Carty-Williams:
Thank you so much, that really means everything as you know. So I was in lockdown, paint a picture, I was in lockdown. I was living by myself in a one bedroom flat. And I was incredibly lonely, very, very lonely all the time, obviously as many people were. And I spent a lot of time on the phone to various people as we all did because there was nothing to do. And I spoke to one of my big sisters. So my dad has nine children in total, my mom has two, and there are various step siblings here, there and everywhere. But I spoke to the eldest of my dadâs children with whom I have a good relationship, I donât have that with the rest of them. And I just said to her, âOh, what would happen if someone hurt me or someone did something to me?â And she was like, âWell, we would all be there.â
And I was like, âNo, you wouldnât.â And she was like, âNo, we would, because even if we donât all get on, weâre family.â And I was like, âOh, thatâs interesting.â And then maybe an hour later I was like, âThatâs going to be a novel. Thatâs what I have to do.â And Iâd written another version of People Person before the one that you see in front of you. And I wasnât vibing with it, I didnât like it at all. And Iâd done so much work on it. And I was halfway through the edit of that in lockdown, and I was like, âI just donât care about this.â And so as soon as I started writing this new version of People Person, I could feel so connected to it. And I was like, âOkay, yeah. This is a sign. You just have to keep going with this one.â
And I off my editor, I pissed off my other editor, I pissed off my agent, I pissed off everyone. But I was like, âBut you want me to talk about what I care about and what is real?â And it also occurred to me that I hadnât read anything about Half siblings. So many people have them, and itâs such an interesting and delicate and often unsuccessful relationship, I think. And I would love for people to be able to talk about those things because I grew up with, as Iâve just said, so many half siblings. And I talk to a fraction of them. And thatâs really, really hard. And itâs kind of like, âOkay, wellâŚâ A lot of my work in some ways is always, I guess, Queenie in some way was fantasizing about who I would be if I didnât have to be sensible. And didnât have to be in control all the time.
And this was fantasizing about what would happen if I did have a relationship with my half siblings and I wasnât even necessarily Dimple. I think that I put bits of myself into all of those characters. I think I could only write them well because I believed in all of them and I believe in all the different bits of them that make up me. But it was definitely me exploring that. And then of course when it comes to dads, the relationship I have with my dad is effectively non-existent. Someone asked me at an event yesterday like, âOh, has he said well done? Has he read the book?â And I was like, âAre you joking?â Like, âOf course, what?â They said like, âThat felt like such a mad question.â And so thinking about dads and thinking about what it means to people when there is someone in your life who you are always taught by TV, by other books. By your friends, by other family members that you see, you are taught that this person is meant to love you and meant to care about you and meant to check in and meant to protect you.
What does it do when that doesnât happen? What does it do to you when that doesnât exist? And what does that do to five people who are very, very different in their ways? And how affecting is it when they are just going through life, not necessarily incomplete, but definitely with questions? And definitely understanding at some level that there was rejection there and how do they do that? And so my whole thing was like, âThese five cannot reject each other. I canât let them reject each other though way theyâve been rejected.â
Roxane Gay:
One of the things that I thought was most compelling about the book, most honest, and as a writer, just truly audacious, is that we have this, I think desire, at least I do, to give the reader everything they could possibly want. And then I pulled that back and give them about 85% if I could put a number on it of what they actually want. And what they think they need from the book. And toward the end, as the kids have dealt with the primary obstacle, but thereâs still like, âOkay, now what do we do? And how do we engage with our father? How do we get him back in our lives?â And I donât want to spoil the book for people, but you made a really interesting choice where you didnât make the easy choice. How do you make difficult decisions in your writing and how do you make those difficult choices where you know that you may not satisfy every reader, but you satisfy the story instead?
Candice Carty-Williams:
So actually, itâs funny, I did the same thing in Queenie in a different way. I remember so many people have come up to me to be like, âCassandra should have got what for? I canât believe you let Cassandra get off.â And itâs like, âYeah, but itâs good for the story.â I think it took me a long time to sit in this in myself. And this was when Queenie was coming out. Iâm just thinking about how I like to do things in the world. And I thought, you canât do this for everyone else. And I, of course, there were 10 versions of People Person that could have ended the way that I think wouldâve served everyone. But that didnât serve me as the writer and it didnât serve my story. And itâs my job, I think, to be like, âWhat is the story that you want to tell? And you can only tell it convincingly if you tell it in the way that you need to.â
And so, yes, the ending of that, and actually lots of choices that I made in that were difficult. But they were followed because I was like, âBut thatâs the thing thatâs authentic to me and thatâs what the story is telling me to do.â And so I will listen to the story before I listen to anyone else. But when the book comes out, I love hearing from people. I love hearing their quivals. I love hearing their arguments. Queenie got a lot of shit as a person. And I had to keep saying to people, âSheâs not real. This is a work of fiction.â And I wrote her this way because I knew it would, I wanted, itâs a story.
But I think she was so frustrating to say to people, that people forgot that she wasnât a real person. And it elicited such a passionate response. And sometimes quite an angry response. And sometimes people are really being pissed off with me. Itâs a bit intense. I think there is a space between writing the story and then the story coming out where Iâm like, âYou need to do what you need to do.â And then you just deal with everything afterwards. And I really like that. And I really like that it doesnât make me uncomfortable. I like making people feel things that they wouldnât necessarily feel if Iâd just given them the story that theyâd expect.
Roxane Gay:
So there are five siblings, Nikisha, Danny, Lizzie, Prince, and Dimple. And I noticed that all of them were distinct, which is challenging to do when you have an ensemble and you want people to understand that these people are connected, but they are also individuals. And so how do you build characters and how did you ensure that they would be distinct characters?
Candice Carty-Williams:
So I feel like this is a hack, but I just start with Zodiac signs. Itâs the easiest thing ever for me.
Roxane Gay:
Oh yes.
Candice Carty-Williams:
So Iâm just like, âWho is this person?â So Nikisha is an Aries, clearly. Dannyâs obviously a Gemini. Dimple is a cancer. Lizzie is a Leo, and Princes are Sagittarius. And then it was like, âPut those five signs in a room, whatâs going to happen?â And it was just the easiest thing. So I had so much fun being like, âOkay, so the most difficult relationship is going to be, I mean, Dimple in kind of everyone, because CancerâsâŚâ Iâm a Cancer myself. And Iâm so feeling that so many of my relationships were when I was younger, difficult because I didnât understand why people didnât feel exactly like I did. Why they didnât respond exactly like I did. Why they werenât quick to emotion like I was, I couldnât get it.
And then as I got older, I was like, âOkay, star signs, think about this stuff.â And I started to get really into it. My mom was really into it, and I would always be like, âOkay, whatever.â But then I got older and I was like, âOh no, this actually helps me as a framework for people.â And so I knew that having Dimple as a Cancer, her being that central point, those relationships that she was going to have, especially with Lizzie as a Leo, that is going to be very difficult. But also Nikisha, who would be always telling her what to do. And itâs like, âWhy are you telling what to do and not thinking about my feelings? My feelings are soâŚâ And then Prince, who is Sagittarius, itâs like, âNothing sticks.â And her being like, âEverything sticks on me. Why does nothing thing stick on you?â And then Danny, whoâs just this sort of wide thinking, Gemini, whoâs really optimistic because heâs not bogged down by anything and heâs not bogged down by his past in particular.
And just thinking about Dimple and these people, but also the rest of them. And honestly, star signs is just my favorite thing because I just know what Iâm dealing with. And so very simple. And just even down today, they would talk to each other and the way they would talk amongst themselves. And also the journey of them. So if I take two characters, Lizzie is a Leo, as I said, sheâs very upfront. Sheâs going to say things, sheâs going to call things, how she sees them.
And what we learn about her through her life is like, âOkay yeah. This is the person that she is.â But itâs not a surprise. Itâs not a tell because we know how sheâs going to operate. But Danny is a lot slower because heâs not urgent. Heâs just thinking about things and taking the day as it comes. And so as his story is revealed, and it takes a lot of time, it takes time because Danny takes time. And so itâs just thinking about how they would be and how they are telling us who they are, just from that standpoint. And so I just had a very clear vision of them just with, I will always use Zodiac as my starting point because I donât know, it just helps. It just feels like I have a great trick, like Iâve tricked everyone.
Roxane Gay:
Iâve never heard that before. And it makes sense. I mean that really, it really makes sense. Iâm a Libra, so of course I would think it makes sense.
Candice Carty-Williams:
No, I know. Arenât you a triple Libra?
Roxane Gay:
I am like a quintuple Libra. I have all but one of my suns are moons. A couple years ago for my birthday or anniversary, my wife got me a private reading by Chani Nicholas.
Candice Carty-Williams:
Oh, [inaudible 00:25:18] a dream, the dream.
Roxane Gay:
Oh. It was so good. Everything was in Libra. And I was like, âYes, that tracks.â Seeing how these characters, yes, come together. And when you describe them through the Zodiac, I was like, âYes, I know these people. I know them.â You mentioned your mother was very into the Zodiac.
Candice Carty-Williams:
Yes.
Roxane Gay:
What kind of relationship did you have with your mother growing up and now?
Candice Carty-Williams:
Gosh, my mom, I really love her. Sheâs a Gemini, itâs difficult. Itâs difficult because sheâs like a fucking fairy. Iâm very far from a fairy. Iâm very realistic. Iâm not pessimistic, I donât think, Iâm very realistic. And she is optimistic to the point of delusion sometimes. But we get on, we had a difficult childhood, I would say. There was a stepdad involved and she just wasnât able to be present in a way that I wouldâve needed from her. But it was okay because my Nan swooped in and was like, âRight, fine. I look after you.â And other family member swooped in and they were like, âRight, well, she needs help.â And actually a lot of the stuff that weâve worked through recently, a lot of therapy, a lot of my stuff has been around, I guess, acceptance and forgiveness of that. But Iâve always known that throughout everything, sheâs a very kind person.
But I think that her optimism is a thing that gets her carried away and she flips off and sheâs like, âOh.â Like we will go to, I remember there were a few years of my life where I was suffering from terrible, terrible anxiety. And sheâd dragged me somewhere, sheâd be like, âNo, you should come. Iâll stay with you the whole time. Weâre going to have a nice time. Iâll look after you.â Weâd get in and she would see her friend the second she stepped through the door and run away. And I wouldnât see her for three hours. And so I was always like, âOh, okay. Thatâs how it is.â But as time has gone on, I donât want to say sheâs like a friend because I still call her when things are upsetting. Thatâs the person that I want to speak to. And so itâs a relationship that Iâm really happy that I work towards. I donât want to say mending, but I work towards understanding, if that makes sense?
Roxane Gay:
It does.
Candice Carty-Williams:
And so sheâs kind. That is so underappreciated sometimes.
Roxane Gay:
It does seem that way sometimes. And I value kindness probably above all other things because it can do so much and it can go such a long way. You can have other deficiencies, but if youâre unkind, I just donât see a way forward.
Candice Carty-Williams:
I agree.
Roxane Gay:
But if you are kind, then we could probably work almost anything out. Youâve spoken very openly and eloquently about childhood trauma and dealing with anxiety and also getting healthcare through therapy. What prompts you to be open about the things that we tend to try and keep to ourselves instinctively?
Candice Carty-Williams:
I suffered so much when I was young with being this sort of strong Black woman. And I just wanted someone to be like, âIâm not, thatâs all I wanted. I just wanted one person to be like, Iâm not that strong.â And I never had that. And I was seeking it for years and years. Not in my family, not around my friends, not on social media. And so I made a decision when I had any sort of public profile to be someone who is like, âIâm not a strong Black woman at all.â And thatâs fine because Iâm sure there is someone out there whoâs going to be like, âWell, great, neither am I.â And also itâs like, this is a very strange, youâve seen 8 Mile, I imagine.
Roxane Gay:
Yes, I have.
Candice Carty-Williams:
And I think you just like Eminem does at the end, Rabbit, you just got to say the stuff people might say about you up front because thereâs nothing Iâm ashamed of. In my bio it says that Iâm the product of an affair. Thatâs true. And had this idea of a journalist being like, âOh, so your parents, were they together?â And me having to be like, âOh.â And maybe someone finding out that. And I was like, âNo, Iâm never going to have anything that anyone can use against me.â
And so I think itâs two things, itâs like, I donât know, I think also Iâm a person in the world. Iâm not perfect, I have many flaws. Iâm trying to work them out. As we say, Iâm trying to be kind as I do it, but thereâs nothing about myself that Iâm ashamed of or embarrassed of. And I donât think anyone should be, because I honestly think so many of us are just trying to get through the day. And so I think this idea that Iâm strong or that Iâm impermeable or that Iâm the best or that I can do everything that other people canât do, itâs just not real. And so I think, just say it because weâre all just figuring it out. And that might sound naive or quite silly, but we are, everyone is just trying every day to deal with something.
Roxane Gay:
It doesnât sound naive. To my mind it sounds realistic because itâs the truth. And sometimes the truth is just plain and simple. You were raised in South London and you said that youâre going to always live there. What makes South London home to you and what holds you to that place?
Candice Carty-Williams:
That is a really beautiful question for my heart. South London feels very safe to me, I think because Iâve been there a lot. But also because Iâm quite a sad person, which is fine. And in a way that Iâm cool with that. It is cool. I can have a laugh and Iâm funny, but naturally the emotion is sad. And Iâve spent a lot of years walking around South London, being sad, listening to music, walking around parks all times of night, all times of day. And Iâve always felt very held still, always by this space thatâs always looked after me.
It feels very consistent. And it is the most consistent thing in my life. Iâve moved around a lot. I worked out that I lived in, maybe Iâve lived in 25 houses when I was growing up and they were all in South London. And I always felt okay because I knew that I was going to be in this place that I understood. And so for me itâs that and itâs the nostalgia of always walking around this place and always feeling okay. And always knowing I was going to be safe and I always was. And I hope that I continue to be, but Iâve always been safe and held by that particular area, which is very interesting. I donât know if many people have that, but I know it and I long for it.
Roxane Gay:
Safety, I think like kindness can be underrated. I think it can be overrated in certain contexts, but I also think especially for Black women, it can be incredibly underrated. And when we do find places and spaces that are safe, they are invaluable because there are so few of them, quite frankly. Before you were a writer, you worked in publishing quite a lot. And in fact when I met you, I think you were still at Fourth Estate. I know that being Black and publishing in the United States is challenging because there are very few people in publishing, editorially as agents, as marketing executives, which is where you were. How did you navigate publishing as a Black Britain?
Candice Carty-Williams:
How did I? How do I answer this question diplomatically? In my first job I had, and legally, in my first job, I had a really fun time. Fourth Estate was really amazing to me. I was able to start the short story prize with the Guardian for Underrepresented Writers. That was incredible. And that was me being like, âI have an idea, I have a plan.â And them being like, âOkay, do it. Enjoy yourself. If you need us, weâre here. You can chat to us.â That was incredible. And so I had a really good time there, but I think, because I was 25 and I was sort of just running around drunk all the time. Just doing stuff I shouldnât have been doing. That was okay. And publishing understood me as a young person. And so most of the seniors would say to me and my friend who I worked with that time, my best friend, they would be like, âOh hey kids.â And that was cool.
And then I went into my next job and it was not as, it wasnât good at all. I felt the weight of being the only Black woman. There were many, many incidents that I found very, very tough. And I wouldâve loved to have stayed on and carried on working publishing, because I know that when you have someone Black or someone of color working somewhere, it makes a massive difference to what is published, even if itâs one person. Because it just takes one person to stand up and be like, âI can see how this book would sell. I can see why itâs important.â But I had to go. I had to go. And for many reasons that basically they paid me off in it. But one day I reckon, I took a break and give them their money back.
But I had to go. I had to leave because I was like, âItâs killing me. Itâs killing me. It is killing me being here. The weight of that is hard.â And Iâm a very resilient person. I always have been. I can do a lot. I can feel a lot and I can cope with it. But that place, I was like, âI donât think Iâm going to make it out alive.â And so I had to go. And I think writing a novel, I was asked by Human Resources, âDid you get permission to do that from your boss?â And I was like, âAh, okay. It begins.â So it was a time.
Roxane Gay:
I have to say, every time I talk to a Black person in publishing, I hear a story and I think Iâm never going to hear anything more fucked up than this. And then I talk to someone else and I hear something worse and I think, âOkay, this is it. This is the apex. Iâm not going to hear anything worse.â When youâre asked, âDid you ask for permission to write,â that hearkens back to so many white supremacist activities like enslavement. Are you kidding me?
Candice Carty-Williams:
I mean, I laughed. I laughed because I thought it was a joke. And I was met with just a very straight face. And I was like, âOh, thatâs not a joke. You are serious.â And I was like, âNo, of course not.â And at that point I was so kind of like, âOh, should I have?â But I was even then I was like, âThis isnât right. Thatâs not right.â
Roxane Gay:
No, itâs not. Itâs curious to see the ways in which employers tend to think that because we work for them for eight hours a day or so, that they have ownership over all 24 of our daily hours. When such is not the case.
Candice Carty-Williams:
Absolutely not.
Roxane Gay:
Do you think publishing has improved in recent years as weâve had more open conversations about diversity, inclusion, representation?
Candice Carty-Williams:
I think it has improved. I am hopeful that the change is here to stay. So every hopeful part of me genuinely does think that is the case. Because I look around when I go to book events and I see that the workforce is way different to how it was when I started in publishing. And when I started publishing, which was maybe, letâs say 10 years ago now, things were in vastly different and for the worst. And so when I look around and also I see whatâs being published, and I see that the literary landscape for us is so much broader and itâs so varied. And thatâs important because I think that there was a time when it was all the slavery books were the thing, and then it was like, âOkay, all the books about being African and in Africa, nebulous Africa with a thing.â And so now itâs like, âOkay, we do see different stories and different backgrounds and different perspectives.â So I remember working on a book, Behold the Dreamers, which was by a Cameroonian authorâŚ
Roxane Gay:
Oh, Imbolo.
Candice Carty-Williams:
Imbolo.
Roxane Gay:
Yeah, great book.
Candice Carty-Williams:
Beautiful book. And I remember just the way they tried to market was just, I think for some reason it was like send it to these Nigerian influencers. And I was like, âYou donât understand.â So itâs like you just have to have people who are in there, people who can pick up on the nuance, which isnât actually nuanced to us, but you know what I mean. And make sure those things are correct in the way they got into the world. And so to answer your question, I think itâs better. And Iâm hoping that itâs sustainable.
Roxane Gay:
I am too. I think thatâs the real measure because Iâm often asked the question I just asked you. And I donât think we have seen improvements that are commensurate with the amount of discussion that there has been around the issue. And the amount of promises publishers have made about addressing the issue. And every time there is a step forward, thereâs a step back where, for example, senior editors at a major Black imprint are suddenly fired from that imprint. Which is something that recently happened at Amistad, at Harper Collins in the US. And so Iâm always curious as to what itâs going to take for sustainable change to happen, which is the real measure. How long can we sustain this where we have more inclusive editorial culture and every other culture within publishing so that people donât think Africa is a country. I canât believe sending a Cameroonian authorâs book to some Nigerian influencers. God bless them.
Candice Carty-Williams:
But that was the whole plan, that was and I was like, âOh, okay.â I was like, âLetâs get a focus group together so I can prove why this is so wrong.â And so I think you need those people who are going to just be there and be like, âThat doesnât make any sense. But again, let me show you in a gentle way why it doesnât make sense.â Itâs exhausting. I donât do and I donât miss it. I would go back into it. People ask all the time, âWould I?â I would, I would go back in. I would, I would go back in. I loved marketing so much and I would go back into that.
Roxane Gay:
You are a writer now full time. And Iâm curious, are you working on your next novel?
Candice Carty-Williams:
Iâm not at the moment because Iâm show running one of two TV shows that Iâm working on. Iâm working on a TV show called Champion, which is a musical of course. And I am working on the adaptation of Queenie. And so there is no time for a novel. The adaptation Queenie is a fucking headache because adaptations are hell. Because itâs just like, âWhy buy the book if you want to just do your own thing with it?â Thatâs interesting, just get someone to write something different. You know?
Roxane Gay:
I do know.
Candice Carty-Williams:
Yeah, Iâm sure. And Iâm really candid about that. And I donât really care who hears it because itâs like, âWhy buy it? I donât understand why you would do this.â And so I think Iâm going to have to earmark my time to get back into novel writing. I think end of next year. TV is a really, really⌠I feel like Iâm trapped in a web and itâs going to take a long time to extract myself from it because there are so many moving parts. And when youâre show running, you have to be there all the time. You have to be active and engaged and you have to talk to people all the time. And I just think when I started writing, I never thought Iâd end up managing anyone. Do you know what I mean? You just sit.
Roxane Gay:
I do. I do.
Candice Carty-Williams:
You just sit and then Iâm not Iâve got to-
Roxane Gay:
Iâm show running a show and Iâm grateful for the work.
Candice Carty-Williams:
As am I.
Roxane Gay:
Itâs not what the dream was.
Candice Carty-Williams:
Do you sleep?
Roxane Gay:
Not enough, not enough. Not enough and my shows have not yet moved into production, which I know is going to amp things up immeasurably.
Candice Carty-Williams:
Oh yes.
Roxane Gay:
I really am grateful for the work, but when I dreamt of being a writer, all I dreamt of was books. And that really would have been enough. This is not something I ever anticipated. And of course I do enjoy it, but itâs a different beast. Book people, I know what to expect from book people for better and worse. And TV people are just buck wild. Theyâre just buck wild. They donât care. Theyâre going to do what theyâre going to do.
Candice Carty-Williams:
Nope. Absolutely.
Roxane Gay:
He who has the most money wins and they have the most money. So itâs very interesting to see what happens with adaptations. Are you also writing the adaptation of Queenie?
Candice Carty-Williams:
Iâm writing some of it, but not all of it. Because I think my thing is, Queenie came into the world with me, and I put her out there. I was able to be like, âThis is what this book is about. This is why I care about it.â And I think that Iâve done that work now. And I think that when itâs a TV show, itâs a different life. Itâs a different thing. And I would actually be okay to be like, âSomeone else can do that.â
But thereâs a really amazing bunch of writers working on it, and itâs been so fun and collaborative and thatâs been one of the best parts of it. Sitting in a room with other Black people, just sharing our experiences and really, really⌠And men as well, Black male writers who were like, âYeah, I know this and I understand this and that. Whatâs this?â And who ask questions as well, crucially. But when it comes to actually writing the thing, Iâd like to back up, Iâd like to step away from it because Iâve done it. Itâs eight years since I started writing her, I donât need to do it again.
Roxane Gay:
I have one final question, which is a question I like to ask every writer that I have the pleasure of speaking with. What do you like most about your writing?
Candice Carty-Williams:
Thatâs a lovely question. Do you know what I like most about my writing? I like in my writing the way that I speak. I do what I want, and then you just catch it and take what you want from it. Thatâs what I like. I donât try to write or speak like anyone else.
Roxane Gay:
I love that. Thank you so much. Candace Carty-Williams, latest book, hot off the press is People Person. This is the first time Iâve hosted Design Matters, but this is the 18th year of the podcast. Both Debbie and I would like to thank you so much for listening, this week and every week. And remember, as Debbie tells us, we can talk about making a difference. We can make a difference or we can do both. Iâm Roxanne Gay and Debbie is looking forward to talking to you again soon.
